Schuyler’s ruling in the Thistle Measurement dispute

by Sail-world.com on 6 May 2009 Earlier in the week we reported the Societe Nautique de Geneve action in the New York Supreme Court to have Golden gate YC and their yacht, BMW Oracle Racing, disqualified for not producing her Customs House Registry documents 'as soon as possible' even though she had been sailing for several months.

The most famous case on the Customs House Registry issue, and non-compliance with the said document, was the 1887 Challenge of Thistle. The matter caused real controversy in New York yachting circles and was eventually referred to the sole surviving donor of the America's Cup, George Schuyler himself for resolution.

Schuyler’s ruling in the Thistle Measurement dispute

James D, Smith, ESQ.,
Chairman America’s Cup Committee of the New York Yacht Club

My reply to the questions submitted to me by your Committee and Mr. Bell is as follows: The clause in the Deed of Gift which requires, besides custom House measurement, a statement of the 'dimensions' of the vessel, is intended to convey a just idea of the capacity of the same without reference to any rule for racing tonnage which may be in force at the time the challenge is given.

The length of load water-line is an essential element. It was furnished by both 'Genesta' and 'Galatea', and had it not been given by 'Thistle' the Committee should have demanded it before closing the terms of the match. Mr Bell did however , furnish the load water-line of the 'Thistle', notwithstanding his misapprehension of the necessity of doing so, for the reason , as stated by himself, that if that information was withheld it would be impossible to determine with any approach to accuracy the power of his boat , a reason which proves the necessity of length of load water-line being a factor in giving the 'dimensions' of the vessel, as well as the desire of Mr. Bell to do everything in his power to make a fair trial between the contestants for the Cup.

Your second question refers to the discrepancy between the load water-line of the Thistle as furnished by letters March 16th 1887, about 85 feet, and the actual measurement made in New York, 86.46 feet. The length of load waterline of a vessel in commission is accurately obtained; but before launching, as was the case with the 'Thistle', there was no course left for the owner but to apply to his designer for the necessary information. This was done, and the certificate of the designer was forwarded, stating that 'it was impossible to give exactly the water-line length; this, however, is her designed length, and when she is afloat and in racing trim I have no reason to expect that it will be more than an inch or two out either way.'

The importance of accuracy in giving the dimensions of a yacht challenging for the Cup is so great that any decision reached in any one case cannot be used as a precedent in any other which may arise. A great error in any of the 'dimensions' whether through mistake or design, would vitiate the agreement – a small one should be governed by the circumstances attending it , and always on the liberal side.

Although the variation between the stated and actual load water-line is so large as to be of great disadvantage to the defender of the Cup, still, as Mr. Bell could only rely upon the statement of his designer, he cannot, in this particular case, be held accountable for the remarkably inaccurate information received from him, and I therefore decide that the variation is not sufficient to disqualify him from starting the 'Thistle' in the race agreed upon.

Respectfully yours
George L. Schuyler.


In 1890, Schulyer was interviewed by the New York Times, on the state of the Deed of Gift

New York Times 14th May 1890

A Question Of Fair Play
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Why British Yachtsmen Are Opposed To The New Deed
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Future Contest For The America’s Cup Are Prevented By The 'Dimensions' Clause.

Mr. George L. Schuyler , who is the only one of the original owners of the famous schooner yacht America now living , was interviewed yesterday at his home , 19 West Thirty-first street, by a TIMES reporter in regard to the conditions which now govern the America’s Cup, held by the New-York Yacht Club. The discussion over the present Deed of gift under which the Cup is held carried on in the exhaustive correspondence between the New-York Yacht Club and English yachtsmen during the last year , has kept that document constantly before the public, and has resulted in disagreements which have prevented international contests.

The Earl of Dunraven´s challenge, sent through the Royal Yacht Squadron last year broke a quiet spell which had prevailed in international yacht racing affairs since 1887, when Volunteer win her races against the Thistle, but all arrangements for a race were at an end when it was learned by the Royal Yacht Squadron that the new Deed of gift would be enforced by the New-York Yacht Club. Misinterpreting a communication form the New-York Yacht Club to mean that a challenge would be received under the Deed of 1882, Lord Dunraven renewed his challenge for this year, and now he writes to the New-York Yacht Club that he would not ask any English club to recognise the new Deed.

Immediately after the races between Volunteer and Thistle a number of gentlemen belonging to the New-York Yacht Club, among whom were Gen. C. J. Paine and J. Malcolm Forbes of Boston, consulted with Mr. Schuyler in regards to making certain changes in the conditions governing the Cup, inasmuch as it was believed that the changes were necessary in order to insure fairness in future competitions. It was agreed that any alternation in the Deed has better be made soon, for if anything should happen to Mr. Schuyler the New-York yacht Club would be powerless to change the Deed then in force. Mr. Schulyer approved of a number of suggestions made, and consequently the second Deed was destroyed and the present one drawn up and signed.

There immediately came a storm of disapproval form the English yachtsmen, started by Dixon Kemp of the London Field . At first this was somewhat chaotic, but it soon resolved itself into an attack on the new provision which demands the principal dimensions of a challenging yacht ten months in advance, and there it has stuck. Dixon Kemp and George L. Watson. Designer of the Thistle and Valkyrie, have stood out boldly in their argument against this demand by the club holding the Cup, and it appears the claim of unfairness in this regard has won over the yacht clubs of England to such an extent as to interfere with contests for the America’s Cup.

When Mr. Schuyler was asked about the demand for the dimensions of a challenging yacht, he said;
'When I consented to the making of the new Deed. This provision was considered by me to be of minor importance. We were probably influenced by our recent experience with the dimensions of the Thistle. That yacht went over the dimensions sent us by her owners by about eighteen inches, load water line measurement, but when I was called upon to decide her eligibility to race the Volunteer, I said I believed Mr. Bell had acted in good faith, and I consequently decided that she could sail. The main reason we ask for the load water line length, draught of water , beam at the waterline, and extreme beam is to know what kind of a vessel we have to meet . I believe the challenged party has a right to know what the yacht challenging is like, so it can meet her with a yacht of her own type if it is so desired.

'I deny most emphatically that giving the dimensions asked for will reveal the lines of a vessel, and I do not believe any yacht designer will say it will. The Volunteer and Mayflower is a case in point. The dimensions of these two yachts are almost identical, and still their lines are very different. If you give a designer these dimensions which yacht will he produce? We never asked for the lines o